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A Bit of Optimism - Gratitude with Carolyn Adams

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Carolyn Adams is an extraordinary woman. A world-renown dancer, pioneer, and teacher - she is a light that shines bright. I wanted to discover what she’s learned in her purposeful life and get her perspective on what’s going on right now. I loved our chat – I hope you do too. This is… A Bit of Optimism.

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There
are
a
few
people
in
the
world
who
just
seem
to
shine
bright,
they
are
a
light
in
a
dark
room,
and
Caroline
Adams
is
one
of
those
people.
She's
a
world
renowned
dancer,
a
pioneer
and
a
teacher.
And
she
just
seems
to
have
this
magical
perspective
on
the
world
and
how
to
approach
it
with
such
intense
purpose.
I
had
the
chance
to
sit
down
and
talk
to
her
and
I
left
completely
inspired.
This
is
a
bit
of
optimism.
Carolyn,
thanks
so
much
for
joining
me.
What
was
it
like
for
you
as
you
were
trying
to
build
a
career
in
the
arts,
trying
to
be
a
dancer
as
a
young
black
woman
during
the
civil
rights
era
during
the
1950s
and
60s?
Well,
it
was
a
pretty
smooth
ride.
I
actually
didn't
face
too
many
obstacles
in
my
early
years
or
even
later.
And
it's
partly
because
I
knew
what
I
wanted
to
do.
I
didn't
have
low
expectations,
but
I
sort
of
had
none.
I
just
knew
I
wanted
to
dance.
And
then
I
was
very
fortunate.
I
went
to
an
elementary
school
that
had
dance
and
I
went
to
a
high
school
that
had
dance.
And
then
I
started
training.
There
really
weren't
a
lot
of
barriers.
For
African-Americans
in
terms
of
training
now,
early
on,
little
bit
before
me,
some
of
the
classes
were
segregated
and
we
tell
this
story
about
how
the
kind
of
teachers
would
let
the
Negro
students
take
class
in
the
hallway,
couldn't
go
in
the
studio.
I
do
tell
my
students
that
because
I
want
them
to
know
how
different
the
world
was
even
in
my
lifetime.
But
by
the
time
I
came
along,
you
had
two
major
institutions
that
were
quite
multiracial,
multicultural.
One
of
them
was
Katherine
Dunham
School
and
company,
and
the
other
one
was
the
new
dance
group.
And
they
were
international
interracial
dance
collectives.
And
that
came
as
early
as
the
20s
where
all
of
my
consciousness
about
this
kicked
in
was
when
I
became
a
teenager
and
we
were
starting
to
work
in
the
civil
rights
movement,
gearing
up
for
that.
And
my
parents
were
involved
in
politics
and
journalism.
My
mother
wrote
a
full
account
of
and
the
Till
murder
because
Emmett
Till
and
my
sister
and
I
were
about
the
same
age
when
this
horrible
thing
happened.
And
so
my
mother
was
really
very
moved.
That's
really
when
we
started
to
get
involved.
It
was
feeling
more
from
an
activist
point
of
view.
We
were
not
really
subjected
to
a
lot
of
discrimination.
And
I
think
what's
really
interesting
about
it
is
that
my
father
was
born
in.
My
mom
was
born
in
1912,
the
year
the
Titanic
went
down.
And
so
you
can
imagine
he
was
in
Georgia
and
she
was
in
Minnesota
and
they
met
in
New
York.
But
they
had
very,
very
different
experiences
and
certainly
suffered
a
lot
of
the
especially
my
father
being
in
the
South,
suffered
a
lot
of
discrimination.
They
just
lived
with
that.
But
they
really
didn't
have
the
victim
mentality,
even
though
they
had
been
subjected
to
discrimination.
And
they
certainly
saw
horrible
things.
They
weren't
oblivious,
but
they
were
proactive
and
prepared.
How
did
their
experience
come
out
as
parents?
Because
clearly
they
had
an
experience
they
didn't
want
their
children
to
have.
Right.
And
so
how
did
they
prepare
you
for
what
could
happen?
Well,
I
think
it's
because
they
were
so
prepared.
My
mother
was
a
very
accomplished
musician
and
composer
and
my
father
was
a
journalist.
And
so
I
think
they
had
found
themselves
in
some
way.
And
I
also
think
it's
wonderful
the
way
that
they
found
each
other.
They
were
a
team,
so
we
felt
very
secure.
I
think
it's
so
interesting
that
intellectually
you
understand
what's
going
on
in
the
world.
I
mean,
as
you
said,
your
father's
a
journalist.
You
were
involved
as
young
activists.
You
were
very
intellectually
aware
of
the
state
of
America
at
the
time.
And
yet
you
say
you
didn't
face
much
racism
and
had
a
smooth
ride,
but
you
had
to
be
aware
of,
for
example,
that
you
were
the
first
African-American
in
the
Paul
Taylor
Dance
Company.
Well,
I
was
the
second
best,
but
everyone
says
that
I'm
the
first
because
the
first
African-American
was
fair
skinned.
I
guess
people
didn't
know.
So
out
of
respect
for
her,
I
like
to
say
that
the
people
get
embarrassed
when
I
say
that.
What
was
her
name?
ElizabethSo
you
had
to
at
least
been
aware
that
you
were
one
of
the
first
I'm
sorry
to
be
so
resistant,
but
the
thing
is
that
when
I
joined
the
Taylor
Company,
there
were
six
people
didn't
feel
like
such
a
minority
situation.
Yeah,
it's
a
small
company
and
we
were
just
building
the
company.
So
I
felt
like
a
founder
in
a
way.
Do
you
think
with
the
arts
ahead
of
the
curve?
Well,
I
think
they're
inherently
more
diverse
and
more
function
oriented.
There's
more
collaboration.
And
we
can't
do
this
thing
alone,
especially
in
dance.
I'm
very
curious
what
your
thoughts
are
about
what's
going
on
in
the
world
right
now,
especially
given
your
very
different
experience
growing
up.
I've
had
such
a
wide
range
of
emotions.
I
started
out
with
just
a
lot
of
fear
of
my
own
mortality.
And
then
the
way
that
overlap
with
all
of
this
racial
trauma
and
stuff
really
been
sort
of
an
existential
crisis.
And
I
think
that
in
terms
of
hearing
all
the
different
voices
about
Black
Lives
Matter,
which
of
course
they
do,
I
think
that
that
didn't
really
resonate
with
a
lot
of
people.
Until
they
witnessed
a
murder
on
TV,
but
then
a
lot
of
people
said
this
thing
going
on
for
years
and
years,
it
does
give
you
an
entry
point
for
a
different
kind
of
conversation.
Typical
conversations
often
happen
circumstantially,
sort
of
hard
to
schedule
one.
But
I
think
there
have
been
more
serious
conversations
because
you
got
to
get
a
little
bit
beneath
the
surface
where
suddenly
people
think
like,
that's
what
it
feels
like
to
be
a
victim
would
be,
you
know,
handcuffed
and
then
murdered
while
you're
begging
for
your
mother.
That
would
be
the
initial
thing.
Just
get
people's
feelings.
You
get
where
people
live.
I
appreciate
this
idea
that
something
has
to
happen
before
somebody
has
the
wherewithal
to
say,
I
need
to
talk
to
you
about
something
bigger
than
this.
There's
always
something
underlying.
Right.
But
it
takes
it
takes
a
thing
to
force
a
conversation.
Yeah,
I
think
so.
And
then
you
hope
that
you're
open
to
it.
I
think
that
becomes
the
difficult
part.
Right.
And
either
side
can
start
the
difficult
conversation.
Well,
it's
funny
if
you
think
about
it
within
the
context
of
a
therapeutic
situation,
therapy
sessions
are
often
very
difficult
conversations,
but
it's
what
is
the
comfort
level
and
what
is
the
trust
and
what
is
the
interaction?
Anyway,
I
think
those
kinds
of
environments
can
be
created.
Have
you
had
any
difficult
conversations
recently?
Have
you
had
to
create
that
space?
Yeah,
I
was
talking
to
somebody
about
race
and
about
some
person
who
had
said
some
racist
thing
to
some
other
person.
Then
it
was
over
her
and
it
became
a
little
scandal.
And
this
white
person
who
was
telling
you
this
story
is
talking
about
how
furious
he
was
with
this
other
white
person
who
had
made
this
racial
slur.
And
I
was
trying
to
say,
well,
she
was
probably
brought
up
that
way.
And
he
said
to
me,
which
was
real,
he
said,
well,
I
was,
too.
They
made
a
choice.
He
said,
I
grew
up
hearing
the
N-word
and
everything
of
my
whole
life,
and
he
said
she's
responsible
for
making
a
choice
not
to
do
that.
And
that
was
kind
of
a
revelation
for
me.
What
was
the
revelation?
Well,
just
the
idea
that
somebody
is
responsible
for
not
only
their
behavior,
but
their
willingness
to
look
at
things
out
of
their
own
eyes
and
not
those
things
that
are
still
there.
Yeah,
the
idea
that
we're
active
participants
in
our
own
life,
right?
Yeah.
There's
a
poem
by
Philip
Larkin
of
which
the
first
stanza
is
they
fuck
you
up
your
mum
and
dad.
They
may
not
mean
to,
but
they
do.
They
fill
you
with
the
faults
they
had
and
add
some
extra
just
for
you.
Oh,
that's
great.
And
it
is
that
we
carry
this
baggage.
And
the
question
is
will
probably
gain
more
baggage.
But
what
bags
do
we
leave
behind
as
well?
Right.
And
the
fact
that
we're
actively
we
should
be
hopefully
actively
examining
the
bags
we're
holding
at
all
times,
which
is
this
idea
of
self-examination.
Right.
I
guess
that's
also
a
bit
of
a
luxury,
because
in
a
way,
if
you've
got
those
patterns
set
up
and
there's
nothing
really
to
challenge
it,
it
somehow
means
that
you
have
to
break
away
so
that
you
become
porous
before
you
can
even
start
to
make
those
choices.
There
has
to
be
a
mechanism
that
takes
us
from
tension
to
safety.
Well,
I
think
that's
a
very
powerful
idea.
It
also
explains
why
it's
so
important,
especially
in
art,
but
in
teaching,
in
education
in
general.
What
you
really
want
to
do
is
teach
the
person
before
you
can
teach
the
subject.
People
say,
what
do
you
teach
us
that
I
teach
people
you
want
to
build
skills,
but
you
also
want
to
build
self
knowledge
and
the
person
is
within
the
person
so
that
they
have
their
receptors.
So
you're
trying
to
do
both
things
at
once,
you
to
give
them
the
skills
of
reason
and
judgment
and
all
that.
But
you
have
to
make
them
the
author
of
their
own
thoughts
and
also
their
own
movements.
I
love
this.
This
goes
to
a
deep
sense
of
purpose,
right?
Especially
for
a
teacher
like
yourself,
which
is
you're
not
there
to
teach
a
curriculum.
You're
not
there
to
teach
a
movement
or
a
choreography.
You're
there
to
teach
a
human
being.
And
every
teacher,
formally
or
informally
is
responsible
for
helping
the
human
beings
in
their
care
become
better
versions
of
themselves.
And
they
use
their
discipline
or
their
subject
as
a
means
to
do
it.
But
at
the
end
of
the
day,
is
that
this
person,
child
or
adult,
leave
this
conversation
or
leave
this
classroom
slightly
better
than
they
went
in,
not
slightly
better
informed,
not
just
slightly
more
intelligent,
not
just
slightly
better
at
the
choreography,
but
actually
having
learned
that
capacity
for
self-examination
or
to
have
an
opinion
on
the
path
of
life
that
they
can
choose.
Yeah,
and
part
of
that
is
getting
them
to
recognise
that
they
have
to
be
in
the
driver's
seat,
that
they
have
to
be
in
charge
of
that.
So
you
got
to
get
to
know
what
they
don't
know
so
that
they
can
then
go
after
it
actively
and
not
pass
it.
One
of
the
ways
to
really
inhibit
another
person's
life
without
putting
them
behind
bars
is
to
convince
them
that
they
have
nothing
to
offer.
This
is
the
tragedy
of
discrimination.
You
tell
a
poor
person
they
have
nothing
to
for.
People
are
always
giving
to
other
poor
people.
The
notion
of
empowerment
has
to
do
with
one's
ability
to
reach
out
and
be
of
use.
And
of
assistance,
we
are
human
animals,
we
connect
you,
isolate
people
and
tell
them
they
have
nothing
to
give,
just.
The
course
to
destroying
is
the
most
demoralizing,
heartless
thing
you
can
do.
We
spend
so
much
time
telling
individuals
or
even
populations
that
they
have
no
value,
which
perpetuates
the
problem.
And
what
we
need
to
do
here
is,
is
convince
people
who
may
have
not
been
convinced
of
that
in
the
past
that
they
have
great
value.
The
thing
that
I
was
struck
by
that
you
said
before
that
I
loved
was
that
it
requires
partnership,
that
nobody
can
do
this
themselves,
that
in
all
these
cases
that
we're
talking
about,
there's
at
least
two.
There's
a
student,
there's
a
teacher,
there's
black
and
there's
white.
You
know,
there's
me
and
you.
Well,
we're
communicator's
the
interplay
in
the
interaction
and
the
response.
This
is
our
oxygen,
which
is
why
this
pandemic
has
been
so
difficult
for
most
people.
If
we
have
to
define
you,
dancer,
pioneer,
teacher,
which
is
the
word
that
you
like
the
most
teacher,
teacher.
And
so
the
question
I
have
is,
what
does
it
mean
to
you
to
be
a
teacher?
Well,
to
me,
I
try
to
impart
everything
that
I
know
to
them
and
that
they
know
that
they
have
the
power
to
bring
about
anything
they
want
to
bring.
That
takes
a
lot
of
courage
to
do
most
things.
I
also
talk
about
the
type
of
people
in
the
circus
that
you
can't
just
sort
of
do
this
step.
You
are
the
type
of
not
only
that,
but
that
partner
of
yours.
You
better
catch
her.
You
have
to
raise
the
standard
of
what
they're
going
for
and
what
they're
responsible
for.
And
I
think
now
when
everybody
is
going,
they
want
the
job.
So
they're
going
to
try
to
please
other
people
all
the
time.
And
that's
such
a
hard
thing
to
balance
because
you
do
want
to
do
that,
too.
I
had
a
teacher
in
high
school,
a
chemistry
teacher
in
high
school,
Mr.
Vean,
and
he
would
say,
we
have
a
quiz
today
and
we'd
all
grumble
and
he'd
say,
if
you
don't
pass
this
quiz,
you're
going
to
fail
chemistry.
And
if
you
fail
chemistry,
you're
going
to
fail
high
school.
And
if
you
fail
high
school,
you
won't
get
a
job.
And
if
you
don't
get
a
job,
are
going
to
be
homeless
on
the
street.
So
if
you
don't
pass
this
quiz,
you're
going
to
be
homeless
on
the
street.
Nice.
So
how
do
you
raise
the
stakes
without
scaring
people?
Raising
the
stakes
has
to
do
with
knowing
that
you're
responsible
for
what
you
get
out
on
stage.
They
can't
see
the
choreographer.
They're
looking
at
you.
So
the
responsibility
and
how
soon
do
you
need
that
information?
When
you
first
hear
something,
you
have
to
hear
as
if
you
were
going
to
teach.
And
the
first
things
that
go
into
your
brain
are
the
things
you
retain
the
most.
So
you
try
to
get
it
right
at
the
front
end.
Yeah.
So
you
want
to
get
the
engagement
very
early
on.
So
you're
building
the
stakes.
You
got
to
put
the
person
in
the
driver's
seat
so
they
are
already
responsible.
And
then
you
raise
the
standard
of
the
actual
performance
of
what
they're
doing,
the
importance
of
it,
the
immediacy
of
it,
all
of
that.
You
want
them
to
focus
on
something
that
is
that
important,
that
requires
that
amount
of
focus.
When
I
see
people
take
over
the
process
of
their
own
learning
to
when
I
feel
like
I
can
step
back
and
it's
not
like
necessarily
this
big
explosion,
but
you
can
just
feel
them
moving
away
from
your
voice
and
away
and
their
own
voice
kind
of
emerging,
could
be
the
way
that
they
move,
the
way
they
take
over
something
that
you've
given
them.
Is
it
like
being
a
parent
and
watching
your
child
leave
and
become
somewhat
independent?
I'm
not
letting
my
children.
There's
less
anxiety.
But
yes,
it's
sort
of
like
how
did
you
learn
to
be
a
teacher?
I
had
a
great
teacher
who
was
one
of
your
great
teachers.
Her
name
is
Schaumberg.
She
was
German.
She
came
to
this
country
a
dance
with
Martha
Graham
very
briefly
because
she
was
very
badly
injured,
but
she
became
a
choreography
teacher.
What
did
you
learn
from
her?
She
was
wise.
She
taught
composition.
So
the
first
thing
she
taught
me
was
how
to
look
at
dance.
I
was
never
planning
to
be
a
choreographer.
And
good
thing
because
if
I
had
been,
I
would
have
been
tragic
if
that
had
been
what
I
wanted
because
I
had
no
ability.
But
you
taught
us
how
to
see,
like
a
good
painter.
You
know,
you
look
at
what's
in
front
of
your
face
that
taught
me
how
to
learn
and
understand
movement.
I
also
have
enough
technical
skills.
I
can
put
a
dance
together.
There's
some
craft,
but
to
have
an
eye
for
movement
is
a
huge
thing
that
she
taught
me.
But
she
also
taught
me
something
much
more
important
than
that,
which
is
that
she
could
be
very,
very
blunt,
but
it
was
never
disempowering
and
it
was
never
personal.
It
was
just
clear.
So
if
you
did
a
little
study
and
she
would
say
it's
simply
not
working,
not
you're
not
working,
it's
simply
not
working.
And
then
we
would
say
try.
They
upstage
you
try
this,
you
always
had
the
ability
to
make
choices
and
to
make
changes.
I
like
that
it's
simply
not
working
versus
you're
not
working.
And
again,
it
goes
to
this
idea
that
you
said
before,
which
is
we
want
to
tell
people
that
they
have
capacity,
capability
that
everybody
has
worth
and
telling
people
that
they
have
no
worth.
They
have
no
value.
If
you
say
you
got
it,
you
know
you're
wrong
or
you
got
it
wrong
versus
it's
not
working.
I
love
how
it
disconnects
the
human
being
from
the
result.
Final
question
for
you.
Can
you
share
a
poignant
lesson
that
you
have
learned
about
life?
Well,
when
my
my
mother
died,
she
was
an
incredible
person.
She
was
one
hundred
and
three.
And
I
was
asleep
at
home,
got
a
phone
call
from
her
caregivers.
going
to
jump
in
a
cab.
I
actually
say
goodbye
to
my
mother
on
my
cell
phone
in
the
cab
and
believe
it
when
people
criticize
cell
phones.
I
said,,
but
anyway,
she
was
ready
to
go.
And
my
niece
held
the
phone
to
her
ear.
And
I
said,
what
am
I
going
to
say
to
the
last
thing
you'll
hear?
And
like
you
said.
Thank
you
for
everything.
,
I
think
gratitude
is
is
one
of
my
most
valued
things
that
I
have
in
my
life.
I'm
really
grateful
to
all
the
people.
The
life
I
have
enormous
time
and
gravity,
and
I
guess
if
you
have
gratitude
and
a
sense
of
appreciating
what
you
have
for
yourself
and
what
you
have
to
give,
it's
kind
of
hard
to
be
totally
pessimist
because
that's
a
process.
It's
a
living
process,
that
kind
of
indestructible
every
day
to
end
with
a
gratitude
to
say,
what
am
I
grateful
for?
Forces
us
to
find
something
good
about
the
day.
I
think
so.
And
I
think,
you
know,
with
this
24
hour
news
cycle
where
the
news
is
incentivized
to
show
us
things
that
scare
us
because
it
is
good
for
their
ratings,
which
is
good
for
their
advertising,
I
think
sometimes
we
we
stop
seeing
the
good
in
the
world
and
start
to
believe
the
world
is
bad
or
humanity
is
bad.
And
if
we.
If
we
have
this
practice
of
ending
every
day
to
find
something
that
we
were
grateful
for,
I
think
it's
more
than
just
a
nice
idea.
It
makes
us
all
optimists.
I
think
this
is
what
turns
someone
into
an
optimist,
which
as
you
start
to
recognize
that
there
is
something
every
day
that
is
good.
Right.
And
it
could
be
something
small.
I
have
four
little
things
that
sit
on
my
desk,
and
each
one
of
them
came
from
an
intelligence
that
I
have
from
the
person.
One
of
them
was
a
stranger.
But
they're
all
symbols
of
what
we've
been
talking
about.
And
I
have
them
like
a
little
alter.
One
of
them
was
a
healing
stick
that
someone
gave
me
one
of
those
little
prayer
books
that
a
woman
on
the
bus
gave
to
me
because
I
helped
us.
And
she
said
this
may
not
seem
like
a
big
thing
to
you,
but
it
just
saved
my
life.
Little
objects
that
represent
such
pivotal
moments,
exchanges.
Have
you
ever
heard
of
the
chemical
oxytocin?
No.
So
we're
emotional
beings,
but
we're
also
chemistry.
Right.
And
so
there
are
four
primary
chemicals
in
our
body
that
are
responsible
for
a
lot
of
our
emotions
and
a
lot
of
our
behavior.
Endorphins,
which
you
know
about
as
a
dancer,
you
push
your
body
really,
really
hard.
You
have
an
endorphin
rush
or
you
tell
a
good
joke
or
you
tell
a
good
joke
or
you
eat
chocolate,
dopamine,
which
is
responsible
for
the
feeling
we
get
when
we
find
something
we're
looking
for.
We
accomplish
something
like
I
did
it
or
there
it
is.
You
know,
that
little
bit
of
elation
you
get
when
you
find
your
phone
or
your
keys.
Serotonin,
which
is
it's
pride
and
it's
also
accomplishment.
So,
you
know,
when
our
kids
are
saying,
look
at
me,
look
at
me,
look
at
me,
look
at
me,
watch
me
jump
in
the
pool,
watch
me
jump
in
the
pool.
They
want
the
audience
and
they
want
us
to
say
great
job.
Right.
That
sort
of
recognition.
And
then
you
have
oxytocin
and
oxytocin
is
responsible
for
all
the
warm
and
fuzzy,
all
the
unicorns
and
rainbows.
It's
the
thing
that
gives
us
feelings
of
love
and
connection
and
friendship.
It's
all
of
that
mushy,
mushy
stuff.
And
oxytocin,
there
are
many,
many
ways
to
get
it.
Human
contact
is
one
of
them.
This
is
why
when
someone
is
having
a
hard
time,
we
put
our
hand
on
their
back
and
say,
it's
OK.
We
don't
just
stand
next
to
them
and
say
it's
all
right.
That's
why
I
hug
really
matters
in
times
of
good
and
bad.
But
one
of
the
ways
in
which
you
get
oxytocin
is
by
performing
an
act
of
generosity
so
that
when
you
do
something
for
someone
else
with
no
expectation
of
anything
in
return,
you
feel
good,
right?
Oxytocin
is
responsible
for
that
feeling.
And
when
somebody
does
something
nice
for
us
with
no
expectation
of
anything
in
return,
you
get
a
shot
of
oxytocin.
It
feels
good
when
somebody
does
something
nice
for
us
and
we
feel
sort
of
a
nicer
bond
towards
them.
And
three
of
those
gifts
that
were
given
to
you
were
given
to
you
because
you
did
something
nice
for
someone
and
they
felt
so
warm
toward
you
that
they
wanted
to
give
you
a
symbol
of
their
gratitude.
Yes,
but
perhaps
one
of
my
favorite
things
about
oxytocin
is
that
witnessing
an
act
of
generosity
releases
oxytocin.
That's
good.
And
the
more
oxytocin
we
have
in
our
bodies,
the
more
generous
we
actually
become.
It's
biology.
It's
Mother
Nature's
way
of
trying
to
get
us
to
look
after
each
other.
And
so
when
we
witness
somebody
do
something
nice,
it
actually
makes
us
be
nicer.
And
if
we
hear
a
story
of
somebody
giving,
it
actually
makes
us
want
to
go
do
good.
So
are
you
telling
the
story
of
helping
someone
on
the
bus,
which
was
a
small
act
for
you,
insignificant?
You
probably
would
have
forgotten
about
it
had
you
not
been
given
this
gift
to
memorialize
that
event.
And
simply
you
and
I
talking
about
it
releases
oxytocin
in
somebody
who's
listening
and
might
make
them
do
something
nice
to
somebody
that
might
be
innocuous
today.
Right.
Or
the
story
you
told
of
your
final
words
to
your
mother.
I
mean,
you
choked
me
up
when
you
said
it
because
I
immediately
think
of
the
people
that
I
can
say
thank
you
to.
And
you
you
are
such
a
bright
light.
I
just
love
how
you
show
up
in
the
world.
I
think
there
is
more
struggle
than
you
let
on.
And
I
think
there's
been
more
difficulty
that
you
but
you
are
such
a
bright
light
and
you
are
so
forward
focused
about,
you
talked
about,
where
am
I
going
now,
what
am
I
necessarily
going
through?
But
where
am
I
going?
And
that
for
some
reason
allows
for
you
not
to
notice
or
be
as
affected
by
the
darkness
in
the
tunnel
because
you're
so
focused
the
light
at
the
end.
I
think
that,
too.
But
I
just
I
don't
want
you
to
think
that
I
was
withholding
bad
experiences.
I
think
what
you
just
said
is
more
the
case.
And
by
the
way,
I
don't
think
you
withheld
anything.
I
really
do
think
that
you
were
just
so
focused
on
light.
You're
been
such
a
delight
to
talk
to
you.
Thank
you
so,
so
much
for
taking
the
time.
I
really
appreciate
it.
I'll
talk
to
you
real
soon.
Bye.
I
hope
you
enjoyed
this
bit
of
optimism,
if
you'd
like
more,
please
subscribe
wherever
you
like
to
listen
to
podcasts.
I
hope
you'll
join
me
next
time.
Until
then,
take
care
of
yourself
and
take
care
of
each
other.
Check out more A Bit of Optimism

See below for the full transcript

There are a few people in the world who just seem to shine bright, they are a light in a dark room, and Caroline Adams is one of those people. She's a world renowned dancer, a pioneer and a teacher. And she just seems to have this magical perspective on the world and how to approach it with such intense purpose. I had the chance to sit down and talk to her and I left completely inspired. This is a bit of optimism. Carolyn, thanks so much for joining me. What was it like for you as you were trying to build a career in the arts, trying to be a dancer as a young black woman during the civil rights era during the 1950s and 60s? Well, it was a pretty smooth ride. I actually didn't face too many obstacles in my early years or even later. And it's partly because I knew what I wanted to do. I didn't have low expectations, but I sort of had none. I just knew I wanted to dance. And then I was very fortunate. I went to an elementary school that had dance and I went to a high school that had dance. And then I started training. There really weren't a lot of barriers. For African-Americans in terms of training now, early on, little bit before me, some of the classes were segregated and we tell this story about how the kind of teachers would let the Negro students take class in the hallway, couldn't go in the studio. I do tell my students that because I want them to know how different the world was even in my lifetime. But by the time I came along, you had two major institutions that were quite multiracial, multicultural. One of them was Katherine Dunham School and company, and the other one was the new dance group. And they were international interracial dance collectives. And that came as early as the 20s where all of my consciousness about this kicked in was when I became a teenager and we were starting to work in the civil rights movement, gearing up for that. And my parents were involved in politics and journalism. My mother wrote a full account of and the Till murder because Emmett Till and my sister and I were about the same age when this horrible thing happened. And so my mother was really very moved. That's really when we started to get involved. It was feeling more from an activist point of view. We were not really subjected to a lot of discrimination. And I think what's really interesting about it is that my father was born in. My mom was born in 1912, the year the Titanic went down. And so you can imagine he was in Georgia and she was in Minnesota and they met in New York. But they had very, very different experiences and certainly suffered a lot of the especially my father being in the South, suffered a lot of discrimination. They just lived with that. But they really didn't have the victim mentality, even though they had been subjected to discrimination. And they certainly saw horrible things. They weren't oblivious, but they were proactive and prepared. How did their experience come out as parents? Because clearly they had an experience they didn't want their children to have. Right. And so how did they prepare you for what could happen? Well, I think it's because they were so prepared. My mother was a very accomplished musician and composer and my father was a journalist. And so I think they had found themselves in some way. And I also think it's wonderful the way that they found each other. They were a team, so we felt very secure. I think it's so interesting that intellectually you understand what's going on in the world. I mean, as you said, your father's a journalist. You were involved as young activists. You were very intellectually aware of the state of America at the time. And yet you say you didn't face much racism and had a smooth ride, but you had to be aware of, for example, that you were the first African-American in the Paul Taylor Dance Company. Well, I was the second best, but everyone says that I'm the first because the first African-American was fair skinned. I guess people didn't know. So out of respect for her, I like to say that the people get embarrassed when I say that. What was her name? ElizabethSo you had to at least been aware that you were one of the first I'm sorry to be so resistant, but the thing is that when I joined the Taylor Company, there were six people didn't feel like such a minority situation. Yeah, it's a small company and we were just building the company. So I felt like a founder in a way. Do you think with the arts ahead of the curve? Well, I think they're inherently more diverse and more function oriented. There's more collaboration. And we can't do this thing alone, especially in dance. I'm very curious what your thoughts are about what's going on in the world right now, especially given your very different experience growing up. I've had such a wide range of emotions. I started out with just a lot of fear of my own mortality. And then the way that overlap with all of this racial trauma and stuff really been sort of an existential crisis. And I think that in terms of hearing all the different voices about Black Lives Matter, which of course they do, I think that that didn't really resonate with a lot of people. Until they witnessed a murder on TV, but then a lot of people said this thing going on for years and years, it does give you an entry point for a different kind of conversation. Typical conversations often happen circumstantially, sort of hard to schedule one. But I think there have been more serious conversations because you got to get a little bit beneath the surface where suddenly people think like, that's what it feels like to be a victim would be, you know, handcuffed and then murdered while you're begging for your mother. That would be the initial thing. Just get people's feelings. You get where people live. I appreciate this idea that something has to happen before somebody has the wherewithal to say, I need to talk to you about something bigger than this. There's always something underlying. Right. But it takes it takes a thing to force a conversation. Yeah, I think so. And then you hope that you're open to it. I think that becomes the difficult part. Right. And either side can start the difficult conversation. Well, it's funny if you think about it within the context of a therapeutic situation, therapy sessions are often very difficult conversations, but it's what is the comfort level and what is the trust and what is the interaction? Anyway, I think those kinds of environments can be created. Have you had any difficult conversations recently? Have you had to create that space? Yeah, I was talking to somebody about race and about some person who had said some racist thing to some other person. Then it was over her and it became a little scandal. And this white person who was telling you this story is talking about how furious he was with this other white person who had made this racial slur. And I was trying to say, well, she was probably brought up that way. And he said to me, which was real, he said, well, I was, too. They made a choice. He said, I grew up hearing the N-word and everything of my whole life, and he said she's responsible for making a choice not to do that. And that was kind of a revelation for me. What was the revelation? Well, just the idea that somebody is responsible for not only their behavior, but their willingness to look at things out of their own eyes and not those things that are still there. Yeah, the idea that we're active participants in our own life, right? Yeah. There's a poem by Philip Larkin of which the first stanza is they fuck you up your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had and add some extra just for you. Oh, that's great. And it is that we carry this baggage. And the question is will probably gain more baggage. But what bags do we leave behind as well? Right. And the fact that we're actively we should be hopefully actively examining the bags we're holding at all times, which is this idea of self-examination. Right. I guess that's also a bit of a luxury, because in a way, if you've got those patterns set up and there's nothing really to challenge it, it somehow means that you have to break away so that you become porous before you can even start to make those choices. There has to be a mechanism that takes us from tension to safety. Well, I think that's a very powerful idea. It also explains why it's so important, especially in art, but in teaching, in education in general. What you really want to do is teach the person before you can teach the subject. People say, what do you teach us that I teach people you want to build skills, but you also want to build self knowledge and the person is within the person so that they have their receptors. So you're trying to do both things at once, you to give them the skills of reason and judgment and all that. But you have to make them the author of their own thoughts and also their own movements. I love this. This goes to a deep sense of purpose, right? Especially for a teacher like yourself, which is you're not there to teach a curriculum. You're not there to teach a movement or a choreography. You're there to teach a human being. And every teacher, formally or informally is responsible for helping the human beings in their care become better versions of themselves. And they use their discipline or their subject as a means to do it. But at the end of the day, is that this person, child or adult, leave this conversation or leave this classroom slightly better than they went in, not slightly better informed, not just slightly more intelligent, not just slightly better at the choreography, but actually having learned that capacity for self-examination or to have an opinion on the path of life that they can choose. Yeah, and part of that is getting them to recognise that they have to be in the driver's seat, that they have to be in charge of that. So you got to get to know what they don't know so that they can then go after it actively and not pass it. One of the ways to really inhibit another person's life without putting them behind bars is to convince them that they have nothing to offer. This is the tragedy of discrimination. You tell a poor person they have nothing to for. People are always giving to other poor people. The notion of empowerment has to do with one's ability to reach out and be of use. And of assistance, we are human animals, we connect you, isolate people and tell them they have nothing to give, just. The course to destroying is the most demoralizing, heartless thing you can do. We spend so much time telling individuals or even populations that they have no value, which perpetuates the problem. And what we need to do here is, is convince people who may have not been convinced of that in the past that they have great value. The thing that I was struck by that you said before that I loved was that it requires partnership, that nobody can do this themselves, that in all these cases that we're talking about, there's at least two. There's a student, there's a teacher, there's black and there's white. You know, there's me and you. Well, we're communicator's the interplay in the interaction and the response. This is our oxygen, which is why this pandemic has been so difficult for most people. If we have to define you, dancer, pioneer, teacher, which is the word that you like the most teacher, teacher. And so the question I have is, what does it mean to you to be a teacher? Well, to me, I try to impart everything that I know to them and that they know that they have the power to bring about anything they want to bring. That takes a lot of courage to do most things. I also talk about the type of people in the circus that you can't just sort of do this step. You are the type of not only that, but that partner of yours. You better catch her. You have to raise the standard of what they're going for and what they're responsible for. And I think now when everybody is going, they want the job. So they're going to try to please other people all the time. And that's such a hard thing to balance because you do want to do that, too. I had a teacher in high school, a chemistry teacher in high school, Mr. Vean, and he would say, we have a quiz today and we'd all grumble and he'd say, if you don't pass this quiz, you're going to fail chemistry. And if you fail chemistry, you're going to fail high school. And if you fail high school, you won't get a job. And if you don't get a job, are going to be homeless on the street. So if you don't pass this quiz, you're going to be homeless on the street. Nice. So how do you raise the stakes without scaring people? Raising the stakes has to do with knowing that you're responsible for what you get out on stage. They can't see the choreographer. They're looking at you. So the responsibility and how soon do you need that information? When you first hear something, you have to hear as if you were going to teach. And the first things that go into your brain are the things you retain the most. So you try to get it right at the front end. Yeah. So you want to get the engagement very early on. So you're building the stakes. You got to put the person in the driver's seat so they are already responsible. And then you raise the standard of the actual performance of what they're doing, the importance of it, the immediacy of it, all of that. You want them to focus on something that is that important, that requires that amount of focus. When I see people take over the process of their own learning to when I feel like I can step back and it's not like necessarily this big explosion, but you can just feel them moving away from your voice and away and their own voice kind of emerging, could be the way that they move, the way they take over something that you've given them. Is it like being a parent and watching your child leave and become somewhat independent? I'm not letting my children. There's less anxiety. But yes, it's sort of like how did you learn to be a teacher? I had a great teacher who was one of your great teachers. Her name is Schaumberg. She was German. She came to this country a dance with Martha Graham very briefly because she was very badly injured, but she became a choreography teacher. What did you learn from her? She was wise. She taught composition. So the first thing she taught me was how to look at dance. I was never planning to be a choreographer. And good thing because if I had been, I would have been tragic if that had been what I wanted because I had no ability. But you taught us how to see, like a good painter. You know, you look at what's in front of your face that taught me how to learn and understand movement. I also have enough technical skills. I can put a dance together. There's some craft, but to have an eye for movement is a huge thing that she taught me. But she also taught me something much more important than that, which is that she could be very, very blunt, but it was never disempowering and it was never personal. It was just clear. So if you did a little study and she would say it's simply not working, not you're not working, it's simply not working. And then we would say try. They upstage you try this, you always had the ability to make choices and to make changes. I like that it's simply not working versus you're not working. And again, it goes to this idea that you said before, which is we want to tell people that they have capacity, capability that everybody has worth and telling people that they have no worth. They have no value. If you say you got it, you know you're wrong or you got it wrong versus it's not working. I love how it disconnects the human being from the result. Final question for you. Can you share a poignant lesson that you have learned about life? Well, when my my mother died, she was an incredible person. She was one hundred and three. And I was asleep at home, got a phone call from her caregivers. going to jump in a cab. I actually say goodbye to my mother on my cell phone in the cab and believe it when people criticize cell phones. I said,, but anyway, she was ready to go. And my niece held the phone to her ear. And I said, what am I going to say to the last thing you'll hear? And like you said. Thank you for everything. , I think gratitude is is one of my most valued things that I have in my life. I'm really grateful to all the people. The life I have enormous time and gravity, and I guess if you have gratitude and a sense of appreciating what you have for yourself and what you have to give, it's kind of hard to be totally pessimist because that's a process. It's a living process, that kind of indestructible every day to end with a gratitude to say, what am I grateful for? Forces us to find something good about the day. I think so. And I think, you know, with this 24 hour news cycle where the news is incentivized to show us things that scare us because it is good for their ratings, which is good for their advertising, I think sometimes we we stop seeing the good in the world and start to believe the world is bad or humanity is bad. And if we. If we have this practice of ending every day to find something that we were grateful for, I think it's more than just a nice idea. It makes us all optimists. I think this is what turns someone into an optimist, which as you start to recognize that there is something every day that is good. Right. And it could be something small. I have four little things that sit on my desk, and each one of them came from an intelligence that I have from the person. One of them was a stranger. But they're all symbols of what we've been talking about. And I have them like a little alter. One of them was a healing stick that someone gave me one of those little prayer books that a woman on the bus gave to me because I helped us. And she said this may not seem like a big thing to you, but it just saved my life. Little objects that represent such pivotal moments, exchanges. Have you ever heard of the chemical oxytocin? No. So we're emotional beings, but we're also chemistry. Right. And so there are four primary chemicals in our body that are responsible for a lot of our emotions and a lot of our behavior. Endorphins, which you know about as a dancer, you push your body really, really hard. You have an endorphin rush or you tell a good joke or you tell a good joke or you eat chocolate, dopamine, which is responsible for the feeling we get when we find something we're looking for. We accomplish something like I did it or there it is. You know, that little bit of elation you get when you find your phone or your keys. Serotonin, which is it's pride and it's also accomplishment. So, you know, when our kids are saying, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, watch me jump in the pool, watch me jump in the pool. They want the audience and they want us to say great job. Right. That sort of recognition. And then you have oxytocin and oxytocin is responsible for all the warm and fuzzy, all the unicorns and rainbows. It's the thing that gives us feelings of love and connection and friendship. It's all of that mushy, mushy stuff. And oxytocin, there are many, many ways to get it. Human contact is one of them. This is why when someone is having a hard time, we put our hand on their back and say, it's OK. We don't just stand next to them and say it's all right. That's why I hug really matters in times of good and bad. But one of the ways in which you get oxytocin is by performing an act of generosity so that when you do something for someone else with no expectation of anything in return, you feel good, right? Oxytocin is responsible for that feeling. And when somebody does something nice for us with no expectation of anything in return, you get a shot of oxytocin. It feels good when somebody does something nice for us and we feel sort of a nicer bond towards them. And three of those gifts that were given to you were given to you because you did something nice for someone and they felt so warm toward you that they wanted to give you a symbol of their gratitude. Yes, but perhaps one of my favorite things about oxytocin is that witnessing an act of generosity releases oxytocin. That's good. And the more oxytocin we have in our bodies, the more generous we actually become. It's biology. It's Mother Nature's way of trying to get us to look after each other. And so when we witness somebody do something nice, it actually makes us be nicer. And if we hear a story of somebody giving, it actually makes us want to go do good. So are you telling the story of helping someone on the bus, which was a small act for you, insignificant? You probably would have forgotten about it had you not been given this gift to memorialize that event. And simply you and I talking about it releases oxytocin in somebody who's listening and might make them do something nice to somebody that might be innocuous today. Right. Or the story you told of your final words to your mother. I mean, you choked me up when you said it because I immediately think of the people that I can say thank you to. And you you are such a bright light. I just love how you show up in the world. I think there is more struggle than you let on. And I think there's been more difficulty that you but you are such a bright light and you are so forward focused about, you talked about, where am I going now, what am I necessarily going through? But where am I going? And that for some reason allows for you not to notice or be as affected by the darkness in the tunnel because you're so focused the light at the end. I think that, too. But I just I don't want you to think that I was withholding bad experiences. I think what you just said is more the case. And by the way, I don't think you withheld anything. I really do think that you were just so focused on light. You're been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so, so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. I'll talk to you real soon. Bye. I hope you enjoyed this bit of optimism, if you'd like more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. I hope you'll join me next time. Until then, take care of yourself and take care of each other.

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